Elizabeth Platt ([email protected])
Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:48:24 -0800 (PST)
On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, lyndon nixon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >My English book has also a picture of U2 when it >refers to the
> BRITISH CULTURE (England)!!!!!
> >I think the heart of the four guys is only IRISH!!! >And they hate
> England!
> well, i hope people will correct me if i am wrong, but i believe 3 of
> the 4 members of U2 are Protestant and hence 'marked' as descendants
> of the English settlers in Ireland.
Marked by who? Is there someone running around out there with one of
those label-makers? Sheesh. OK, I'm aware that there are sectarian
eejits galore in Ireland, on both sides of the border, but anyone who
knows anything about Irish history knows that there are plenty of
Catholics who come from other than "bog Irish" stock, and also many
Protestants who have deep roots in the country, and who are just as
"Irish" as anyone who was baptised a Catholic. Religion is a lousy method
of determining one's nationality or ethnicity--never mind the religion of
a person's ancestors!
> By all the talk of U2s 'Irishness' it seems this fact is usually
> overlooked. I doubt the band 'hate England'
> especially as they choose to gig there every tour! ;)
It's a common misconception that one's "Irishness" is determined by how
much one is an Anglophobe. This flies in the face of the fact that there
is a long history of solidarity between those Irish who favored
independence (e.g., the republicans) and the more democratically-minded
people in England, Scotland, etc. This goes back at least as far as the
Young Irelanders working with the Chartists in England, and if I were to
dig a bit more, it might go back even further (for reference, the
Chartists were active in the 1840s). Of course--there's Wolfe Tone's
famous remark that, if Ireland and England were "left to our own devices,
we would surely come to love one another". (This in the 1790's, FYI.)
Next up, [email protected] (MISS PATRICIA M HEFNER):
> I'm from the States, so some might think I'm venturing into unchartered
> territory....plus, this question is a historian's nightmare. It's
> potentially an explosive question, but here goes. Being Protestant in
> Ireland doesn't necessarily mean that you're descended from English
> settlers.
And precisely _when_ did these "English settlers" show up, too? There are
many "settler" families that arrived long before the Reformation...Or even
before there was much of an "England", really! Some of the earliest
arrivals in Ireland, after the British invasion (we're talking High
Middle Ages here) were really more Anglo-Norman, or Welsh-Norman, than
what we would now regard as "English".
> Some Irish Protestants are descended from converts from
> Catholicism. Some are descended from Scottish settlers. There have been
> numerous settlers in Ireland--you can go back to the Vikings in the
> eighth century---but they have mostly intermarried with the natives and
> assimilated into Irish culture in the Republic.So you can find settlers
> in just about any Irish person's ancestry if you go back far enough...
> Northern Ireland, of course, is a completely different situation as per
> settlers and religion are concerned, and I'm not getting into that, no
> way!!
Not necessarily--the ancestry of the people in the north is not as
different from those in the south as some would like for us to believe.
As one Irish poet put it, "we're all mongrel pure". I would find it hard
to believe that anyone's family tree is all "pure" in one way or
another--and to top it off, many Protestants will find their forbears were
Republicans and opposed to British rule, and you'll find many Catholics
whose forbears served in the British military or colonial police, etc.!
Sectarianism was encouraged for political purposes, and finally, with
partition, codified right into the system of government. But it still
doesn't change peoples' ancestry...
> Robbie Robinson <[email protected]>
>
> Let's see, If my memeory serves me right, as I understand it:
> Larry is Dublin Catholic Irish, but Bono would sometimes
> razz him as that damn Viking because the Blond hair gene
> in the Irish came from the Viking raiders and settlers.
Are Dublin Catholics different from non-Dublin Catholics? ;-)
Actually, I've always heard that there were indeed blond Celts...the
Celts were kinda multi-colored...
> Bono's father was Dublin Catholic Irish and his mother's
> family was Prodestant Irish that had been in Dublin so
> damm long it didn't matter.
> Edge's family is from Wales (hey, they're a Celtic people, too)
> and Prodestant and they brought him to Dublin when he was
> less than a year old. Last time I read in, I think, Flanagan's
> book, he was going through custom's faster than the other
> members entering Britian because he had a British Passport,
> so he wasn't an Irish Citizen at that time although that
> might have changed by now.
I assumed that Edge could have gotten Irish citizenship when he married
Aisling. Being a Yank, I'm a bit dim on dual-citizenship, but believe it
can be done. Besides, I know some people in Ireland who are quite
Republican, but for various personal/logistical reasons, carry British
passports.
> Adam has Irish citizenship because he was put through the
> mill at customs like Larry and Bono. His parents were
> British, although they spent a lot of time in other countries.
> Adam lived in some African country as a small child until
> they settled in Dublin when he was about 4 or 5 so he never
> really lived in Great Britian and once said he felt not
> connection with it.
I believe that Adam voluntarily took Irish citizenship, not just to dodge
the customs inspectors at Heathrow! (Dodging *security* at Heathrow, I
could understand...)
Adam went native, what can I say? ;-)
> No matter what their familie's background in religion, they
> are all non-denominational when it comes to religion.
> >From what I've read, they'll pop into any church that they
> come across when they feel a need for a bit of a God fix :)
> In the Irish writer John Water's great book, U2-Race of Angels,
> he considered U2 as the perfect example of what Ireland is
> today. There are many people of not "purely" Irish background
> that are Irish and proud to identify themselves as such.
I've met and/or know people in Ireland who were born American, Dutch,
French, Scots, English, Basque, and Italian, who regard themselves as
Irish and carry Irish passports, etc. Some got their citizenship through
marriage, others went out and got it themselves. And that's the issue
here--it's not something that is decided by religion, who or what your
parents were, what side of the Civil War your grandad fought on, the color
of your skin, your language, or the slant of your politics. It's a
_political_ matter, and a matter of personal choice.
> "Sharon Winsatt" <[email protected]>
>
> I'm dragging my own ancestors out of the closet..(they're starting to
> complain)...but being Protestant and Irish doesn not mean you are
> anglo-Irish...One branch of my family..The Nolands were definitely
> Catholic and came to Maryland in the 1600's another branch was the
> O'Gallahar's...they were very Irish (at least they made a big noise
> about being Irish ) but they were evidently Protestant converts...
Curious; when did the O'Gallahar's come over? Reason I ask is, before the
1840s', many Protestants in Ireland (both "established Church" and
non-Anglican denominations) regarded themselves as Irish, and many
emigrated to the US to get away from British rule! Yeah--so much for the
stereotype that Protestant=British.
However, yes, over the years, a lot of people in the US who are descended
from Irish Catholic emigrants have converted to Protestantism. In fact, a
majority of the Irish-American bloc identify themselves as Protestants!
> anyway...where did all this business come up that U2 hates the British?
> I've never read or heard that anywhere. I don't think I've heard of them
> hating anybody now that I think of it. They might get a little annoyed
> with the British at times (we all do :)joke people..it's a joke!) but
> hate them? I don't think so.
I don't think U2 have had the easiest relationship with the British media
and (especially) the British music press, but I think the same could be
said for quite a few English bands! :P
> "Jane Gallatly" <[email protected]>
>
> Robbie wrote,
>
> >Adam has Irish citizenship because he was put through the
> >mill at customs like Larry and Bono. His parents were
> >British, although they spent a lot of time in other countries.
>
> Actually, I think Adam gets put through the mill for another reason... his
> little cannabis bust a few years ago.
I'm sure they watch all rock stars closely... ;-) But remember, Adam
doesn't have an actual record--it was wiped off the books when he did that
plea-bargain deal and made a big fine/donation at the court's behest....
> Robbie Robinson <[email protected]>
>
> > mullog ([email protected])
> >
> > Good one that...with a name like Hewson...(LOL)
>
> Ye can LOL again. Hewson wasn't always Hewson :)
> In "U2 the Rolling Stone Files" or er.."U2 Race of Angels"
> (I should footnote my damn notes) there is an interview
> with Bono in a Pub and he is looking at a copy of the
> document ordering the execution fo King Charles I.
> (don't ask me what it was doing there)
> He had a good laugh when he saw one of the sigiatures was
> a man with the last name MacAodha. He said that that was
> his family's surname before it was Anglicized.
> Lots of Irish names were Anglicized by the British when
> they controlled Ireland. So... he's really Paul MacAodha :)
> Sounds a bit more Irish, doesn't it?
> Wonder what MacAodha means? Son (or Grandson) of...? Aodha?
> OK, what does Aodha mean I wonder?
I think another Wireling has answered this (saw it on the reflector), but
"Hewson" is just an Anglicized spelling of "Hughson", e.g., McHugh, or
"Son of Hugh". MacAodha is the Gaelic form of the name. "Hughes" may be
another Anglicized variation; "McKee" is the Anglicized/phonetic spelling
used in Scotland.
Slan,
Elizabeth Platt
[email protected]
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