Elizabeth Platt ([email protected])
Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:00:58 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Neville Sutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think I could have been more specific. Yes you did post articles from
>a good range of sources, it wasn't that I had the problem with. It was
> more your own comments that I disagreed with.
Fair enough--but I am entitled to post them. If I say or do something
totally out of line (me?!), feel free to take me to task. Of course, I do
find it interesting that the only person who gets taken to task for her
posts on the issue is also the only person who dares to speak from a
"republican" point of view! Suddenly, the censors come out...funny old
world. I could post any number of dribbly, fuzzy-wuzzy piffle about the
situation, and nobody would bat an eye, because it wouldn't challenge
their way of thinking about it. Yet someone like me comes in with an
"everything you know is wrong" attitude, and suddenly, people are crying
"boo hoo! This isn't appropriate for this list!" Hmph!
[snip]
> > Also, in the future, I'd like you to cite how _my_ posts were factually
> > incorrect or "naive"! And if insight and accuracy are so important to
> > you, howzabout applying those same standards to the band themselves? ;-)
>
> Factually Incorrect :
> - - Gerry Adams dragging John Hume through the peace process : If
>anything it was the other way around.
Did I write that? Actually, in a way, it *is* true--Adams and the SF
folks were after Hume for constructive talks, and co-operation, more than
10 years ago. I've never seen any indication that SF needed any goading
to keep in the process; if anything, they were quite aware that the
reactionaries wanted them _out_, so they had to be persistent about
staying _in_, and asserting their right to be there (and still have to do
so). Overall, the "process" dragged _everyone_ along, didn't it?
> - - David Trimble trying everything he could to wreck the process : I
>don't believe that this was very fair on him. He did drag his heels a bit
>a the start, but when it came to the crunch I think he placed his job on
>the line. If he hadn't been able to convince his party to support the
>agreement, I think he'd be looking for a new job now.
I'm not the only person who's taken Trimble task for his lack of
leadership; it's a sentiment I've seen expressed by a number of
journalists and op-ed writers in various Irish papers, for example. And
his record around this year's Drumcree/Garvaghy standoff was hardly cause
for encouragement. There's not the time nor space here to give a thorough
analysis of the whole UUP/DUP power struggle, the changes in Unionism,
etc., but let's just say that there's room for a _lot_ of improvement!
[snip]
> > What--and who--divided the people? How can people "unite" when they're
> > divided by systemic injustice? As an example, look at the situation in
> > Portadown, where a man can get kicked to death by a mob while the police
> > sit nearby and watch and do nothing. Yet the same police have plenty of
> > get-up-and-go when it comes to hacking their way through nonviolent
> > protestors who are challenging the "right" of sectarian organizations to
> > march through communities where they aren't welcome. How can people
> > "unite" when political leaders like David Trimble won't even treat other
> > people (and their chosen political representatives) like human beings,
> > because of their politics or religion? It does not good to put the onus
> > for injustice on the victims, you know.
>
> Those are some very good questions. Whilst I could give my view on some
>of them, I can't answer all of them. I don't think anyone could.
Well, some of us do try! ;-) Actually, I do believe that it's possible
for people to really unite, even within the Six-County state, without any
"sponsorship" by the powers that be, e.g., the churches or the government,
or the establishment political parties. Nothing seems to alarm the
government more than this fact. I've talked with the community workers at
places like Springhill House and Conway Mill, and they've been
able to organize events (discussion groups, art shows, etc.) with
participants from both republican and loyalist neighborhoods. And every
time they do this, they then become the target of increased "attention"
from the police, the British Army, and even the loyalist paramilitaries.
[snip]
> > Oversimplified or romantic, but really, there are over 30,000 armed,
> > trained soldiers (British Army) and paramilitary police (RUC and RIR)
> > stomping around the North, which gives you folks a military/police
> > saturation that looks more like East Timor than some small part of the
> > shiny new EU! When people talk about "decomissioning", let those with the
> > most guns decomission first...and there also needs to be real change on
> > issues such as discrimination, policing, repressive legislation, release
> > of prisoners, and so on.
>
> Are there really that many? I've never noticed.
That's the most recent figures I've seen--roughly 17,000 RUC/RIR and
13,000 British Army (the numbers can fluctuate by a few thousand,
depending on the stats you're using). Most of these are concentrated in
strongly _republican_ areas--it's quite possible to stroll down Great
Victoria Street and see only a fleeting glimpse of an armored car or two.
It's a bit different in the Lower Falls or Ballymurphy...
> You make it sound like I live in a giant prison camp rather than one of
> the most beautiful countries in the world (Come and visit if any of you
> don't believe me or look here http://www.ni-tourism.com )
Well, some folks in republican areas might say that they *do* live in a
giant prison camp--it won't do any good to dismiss the extent of the
militarization of the North, particularly in republican areas. On the
other hand, I agree, the North is quite beautiful, and anyone who goes to
Ireland should make the trip North. Because of the "troubles", the North
is relatively non-touristy--no kiss-the-blarney-stone kitsch there! I
supppose that since the cease-fires began (1994), things have changed a
bit (I've not been over since then). It's an easy train ride to Belfast
from Dublin, and yes, you can find good record shops in Belfast! ;-)
Problem is, the propaganda over the conflict has done such a good job of
blaming the _people_, and not the "system", for the violence, that too
many visitors are convinced that the North isn't "safe", and that the
people there are all a bunch of religious nutcases, out for blood and
ready to attack anyone and anything. Nothing could be further from the
truth.
> I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. Things are not as
> bad here as the media sometimes portray it. Unfortunately 'Areas of
> Outstanding Natural Beauty' and 'World Heritage Sites' don't seem to be
> as popular with the news crews. I'm not trying to say that the problems
> don't exist, its just that most of the trouble is limited to a very
>small number of areas.
Yep, areas where the people don't vote the government line! ;-) On the
other hand, I wouldn't say that the conflict hasn't affected most of the
North--the form the conflict takes may not make headlines, or top the
evening news, but it does go on, just under the media's "radar".
> This is another reason why I don't like N.I. polictics discussed on
>wire, I think it gives the impression that Northern Ireland is nothing
> more than a battlefield, but this country has so much more to offer.
Well, when I see U2 write a song about the Giant's Causeway.... :D I
think the band are just as guilty of presenting a highly politicized
vision of the North as is someone like me. No, not all songs about the
North need to be "political"; take a listen to Van Morrison's "Coney
Island", for example...
> Anyway, where were we? oh yes...
>
> I think we'd all like to see the day when all those troops weren't
> needed and policemen didn't have to carry guns.
Erm, the police in the North have _always_ been armed, from the creation
of the state. There have never been unarmed police in the North, unlike
the rest of the UK.
> Is it not the case though that 3,000 troops have already been sent home
> in this latest ceasefire period? Not a lot but it is a start.
Well, some were sent back, but then more were flown in over the
Drumcree/Garvaghy situation, and last time I saw the numbers get crunched,
the troops were still at the old pre-ceasefire level. Yes, every bit
helps, but we still need to keep the pressure on to really demilitarize
the system.
[snip]
> > >As John Hume, one of our politicians from a nationalist party, has said -
> > >a united people is more important than a united Ireland.
> >
> > Well, Hume has also said that there isn't a nation in Europe that hasn't
> > been founded by the gun! Funny, I don't see that one getting tossed
> > around a lot (granted, he was being provoked by a gallery full of hooting,
> > jeering Tories at the time he said it, so maybe he just had his dander
> > up).
>
> If you could send me the quote, I'd use it :)
I wish I had kept it! It was the sort of comment that, if it had come
from a Sinn Fein speaker, would have sparked all sorts of condemnation.
Sometimes the messenger is as important is the message, eh?
> He has also said that we now live in a post-nationalist time.. Its time
> to bring people and countries closer together, not break them apart.
So said, but I believe the SDLP is still registered as a "nationalist"
party in the North, and rhetoric and labels aside, they do represent the
same constituency as the now-defunct Nationalist Party, e.g.,
middle-class, moderate Catholics in the North. And I don't think the best
way to unite Europe (or Ireland) is by molding it into something
beneficial to NATO and the multinationals! I prefer the concept of a free
federation of free peoples...
[snip]
> > I think that the "people" are
> > already miles ahead of many of their leaders, and even further ahead of
> > the government and it's apologists.
>
> I agree with that, the majority of the people *are* miles ahead of
> their leaders. But there is a minority of people who are still living in
> the past.
It's not just that there are a few folks who insist on looking backwards;
there are also some people who are seeking to exploit the situation for
their own political advancement. Opportunism is as much an issue here as
any ideological beliefs....
> A lot of people have been watching South Africa to see how it gets on.
> In fact it has been suggested that some of the reforms and procedures
> applied there, could also be used here.
>
> Now the apartheid system has gone, but isn't there still a minority of
> people who are trying to cause problems?
Yes, there have been calls for something along the lines of the South
African Truth Commission. And yes, there are some elements in South
Africa who are still in opposition to the reconciliation government--but I
notice that it's nowhere near as bad as we were told it would be. The
"bloodbath" scenario shouldn't be used to deter any real change and
progress being made...
> People can be harder to change than systems, and I think that this is
> what John Hume was talking about. I don't think that it is in any way
'mushy' or 'fuzzy'
>
> Both problems have to be tackled: the system and the people (even
>though it is only a minority).
Actually, I think systems can be harder to change than people--and the
nature of the system will directly influence how people act and think.
And if steps aren't taken to alter an unjust system, then there is the
tendency to put the blame for the situation on the victims of injustice,
as if it was all their fault! This in turn lets the powers-that-be off
the hook. If we were to take the long view of the North over the past
35+ years, it could also be argued that people can and will change, if
given the opportunity, even if the system around them is still stuck
firmly in the past...
Obligatory U2-related content (for the purists on the list): Again, I'd
encourage any U2 fan who makes the "pilgrimage" to Ireland to go to the
North as well. It's easy enough; trains leave from Connolly Station all
day! :)
Slan,
Elizabeth Platt
[email protected]
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.0b2 on Wed Aug 12 1998 - 01:02:00 PDT